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Quality of in-camera jpeg production, D850
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May 3, 2024 13:04:38   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
R.G. wrote:
Some people are unable to see or appreciate the difference between a well edited jpeg and a well edited raw file. For them, shooting and editing in raw would seem to be a waste of time. Obsession has nothing to do with it and detail is one of the lesser reasons for editing raw files. For me the overall appearance is what differentiates between a so-so shot and one that could be described as special. To achieve that improvement in overall appearance, the brightness levels, contrast, colour and attention-directing have to be as good as they can be and there is no doubt that raw files give a better starting point for achieving that objective.

The more pushing and pulling a file needs, the greater the advantage of starting with a raw file, and the need for pushing and pulling is only occasionally due to error on the part of the photographer. The most common reason for a file needing something more than moderate pushing and pulling is a lack of ideal circumstances at the time of shooting.

Better results give a greater feeling of satisfaction and achievement, and for a professional they can be the difference between a struggling business and a successful one. I would say that referring to the pursuit of better results as "obsession" is a poor choice of words. To each his own.
Some people are unable to see or appreciate the di... (show quote)


In reality, this is the same inane argument that it always is.

The only answer that is completely correct is, "It depends."

Some of my artist friends see potential value in post processing to occasionally add artistic content to an image. Personally, since one of my primary objectives with photography is to render the invisible or the 'hard to see' visible or more visible, post processing can be very helpful or even necessary. Sometimes that requjires working with raw files. Many times it does not. On the other hand, those pursuing photography as craft tend to want to give their work as much "craft" content as possible. Keep in mind also that one of my closest (artist) friends has not made up her mind that photography even is or can be art. Another (the illustrator) is willing to accept photographs as art, and even uses photography extensively to create her reference image library. She has a quite nice camera, but uses her cellphone extensively to capture opportunistic images. She had not one whit of care about the "totally unacceptable digital noise" in my eclipse photo, but was quite fascinated that my image concept and composition was very similar to hers. Our very nice conversation about our images offset the snide comments received here many times over.

So this will be my last comment here. There are way more important things to think about in photography, whether art or craft.

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May 3, 2024 13:05:39   #
R.G. Loc: Scotland
 
imagemeister wrote:
It is more than obsession - it is religion ! .......99 44/100 % of VIEWERS will not/can not share YOUR satisfaction and achievement ! - but, you can imagine otherwise !


So you're saying that 99 44/100 % of VIEWERS (however many that is ) don't or can't appreciate the difference between a so-so image and an exceptional one? Sorry - I don't agree (unless 99 44/100 % of VIEWERS means hardly any).

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May 3, 2024 13:07:38   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
Said by any True Photographer: lower your expectations to match your results.

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May 3, 2024 13:08:54   #
Artcameraman Loc: Springfield NH
 
DaveyDitzer wrote:
I recently went on a deliberate landscape "shoot" with the intention of generating a large print on the order of 24x30. I often shoot both jpeg and RAW which gives me an opportunity to review in jpeg and then PP a RAW image. On this occasion when I compared the in-camera jpeg images with the best I could do post processing the RAW file, I could not do much better than the jpeg produced by my D850. Have any of you experienced this outcome?


Jpeg is an 8 bit per pixel file. Yes, the camera does good in translating what you give it to work with with but you are limiting yourself, however, if you don't have the skills, time or anything else go with the Jpeg, cameras like the D850 is a lot smarter than me.

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May 3, 2024 13:26:35   #
R.G. Loc: Scotland
 
larryepage wrote:
... There are way more important things to think about in photography, whether art or craft.


Absolutely. Some of our most iconic photos are technically very flawed. But what remains a simple truth is that a raw file is a better starting point for editing, and the more extreme the editing, the greater the advantage. What "depends" is the significance of that fact. For some people the potential advantage is of no significance and for some the advantage is trivial. And let's not forget that there are those who are incapable of appreciating the advantages. However, whether the advantages are insignificant for some or unappreciated by some, that doesn't stop them from being real.

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May 3, 2024 13:33:07   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
R.G. wrote:
Absolutely. Some of our most iconic photos are technically very flawed. But what remains a simple truth is that a raw file is a better starting point for editing, and the more extreme the editing, the greater the advantage. What "depends" is the significance of that fact. For some people the potential advantage is of no significance and for some the advantage is trivial. And let's not forget that there are those who are incapable of appreciating the advantages. However, whether the advantages are insignificant for some or unappreciated by some, that doesn't stop them from being real.
Absolutely. Some of our most iconic photos are te... (show quote)


With modern digital equipment, auto-focus lenses, and modern editing software, excellent compositions and technical excellence are not either-or / mutually exclusive expectations.

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May 3, 2024 14:07:46   #
cahale Loc: San Angelo, TX
 
gvarner wrote:
Quality is judgmental. One man's truth is another man's folly.


If quality is judgmental (and I agree), then it can't be "one man's" truth, only his preference.

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May 3, 2024 15:11:39   #
Artcameraman Loc: Springfield NH
 
larryepage wrote:
In reality, this is the same inane argument that it always is.

The only answer that is completely correct is, "It depends."

Some of my artist friends see potential value in post processing to occasionally add artistic content to an image. Personally, since one of my primary objectives with photography is to render the invisible or the 'hard to see' visible or more visible, post processing can be very helpful or even necessary. Sometimes that requjires working with raw files. Many times it does not. On the other hand, those pursuing photography as craft tend to want to give their work as much "craft" content as possible. Keep in mind also that one of my closest (artist) friends has not made up her mind that photography even is or can be art. Another (the illustrator) is willing to accept photographs as art, and even uses photography extensively to create her reference image library. She has a quite nice camera, but uses her cellphone extensively to capture opportunistic images. She had not one whit of care about the "totally unacceptable digital noise" in my eclipse photo, but was quite fascinated that my image concept and composition was very similar to hers. Our very nice conversation about our images offset the snide comments received here many times over.

So this will be my last comment here. There are way more important things to think about in photography, whether art or craft.
In reality, this is the same inane argument that i... (show quote)


Never sell yourself short, you deserve better.

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May 3, 2024 15:33:29   #
SuperflyTNT Loc: Manassas VA
 
Orphoto wrote:
I was under the impression that the compression algorithms involved in jpg production were absolutely standardized.

That means that what we really are discussing is the camera's combination of settings chosen to apply. Nikon (the one brand im really familiar with) labels these as picture controls.


The compression algorithms are, and I’m guessing most cameras don’t do much compression when creating JPEGS. It is the camera settings and camera processor that create the “look”.

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May 3, 2024 15:43:59   #
SuperflyTNT Loc: Manassas VA
 
billnikon wrote:
What do you base your information on this quote "and you can 99% of the time edit the jpg to as good or superior to what you get with RAW."


Just go look at his stuff in the gallery. Most of it would benefit from better editing.

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May 3, 2024 15:47:39   #
R.G. Loc: Scotland
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
With modern digital equipment, auto-focus lenses, and modern editing software, excellent compositions and technical excellence are not either-or / mutually exclusive expectations.


If a photo is worthy we should be willing to see past any technical imperfections....

....mind you, I'm left wondering if we're hearing a plea to re-assess our priorities or hearing lame justifications for not bothering to make an effort to improve.

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May 3, 2024 15:48:31   #
SuperflyTNT Loc: Manassas VA
 
BigDaddy wrote:
True. Far more tools available with a jpg than a raw file. All the tools in a raw editor are available to a jpg photo, plus, all the jpg tools are available as well. If you don't know how to edit in both, you need to bone up on your skills.

In todays world editing skills seem more important than photo skills. Todays camera's make it fairly easy to get pictures well within the range needed for jpg editors.

One can practice his editing skills with a jpg, including loading his jpg into a raw editor. Once he perfects his picture taking skills and editing skills, he can proceed to shooting and editing raw photos if he sees a need.
True. Far more tools available with a jpg than a r... (show quote)


That’s your most ridiculous assertion yet. If you’ve properly processed a raw file there’s no need for special JPEG tools. And while those raw tools work on JPEG’s they’re not nearly as effective because the data is gone. When your camera creates an 8 bit JPEG it throws away 98% of the data in a 14 bit raw file.

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May 3, 2024 15:50:46   #
SuperflyTNT Loc: Manassas VA
 
BigDaddy wrote:
Yes, you're entitled to think RAW will improve your picture taking skills, but the truth is, that's the very last thing that will help.


No amount of editing will improve your picture taking skills, but editing can improve your final product no matter what your picture taking skill level.

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May 3, 2024 16:16:47   #
imagemeister Loc: mid east Florida
 
R.G. wrote:
So you're saying that 99 44/100 % of VIEWERS (however many that is ) don't or can't appreciate the difference between a so-so image and an exceptional one? Sorry - I don't agree (unless 99 44/100 % of VIEWERS means hardly any).


Yes, we DON"T agree ....

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May 3, 2024 16:20:42   #
RKastner Loc: Davenport, FL
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
No - all my RAW edits are always superior to anything the camera could create.


Agreed....the only photos that I do very little processing on are some low light situations, but even then I like bump up the saturation and vibrance some. I can't imagine not doing some processing of my images.

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